I have spent the morning reading various websites that you guys have included in your favorites and I have a question for ya'll ... just a curiousity but I'd appreciate your feedback ...
How important are litergical expressions in your relationship with God?
Most of us "cut our teeth" so to speak on a free style of worship and church that does not embrace much of litergical experience. There are times after having been raised in the Methodist church that I tend to disdain the repetitions and order of the service week after week as boring. HOWEVER, I also can see some of the point that under the guise of reaching out or being "seeker friendly" many churches that I know of or have attended today have completely thrown out any litergical experience as stilted or not giving a free flow to the Holy Spirit.
I believe that as times change so do some of God's methods but I have to wonder how the "great" protestant leaders of our past found there way to inspire the freedoms we have today without jammin or "moving" praise and worship and in the midst of a litergical order within the chruch every time they met. Are there keys ... or insights that we have thrown out in our "free style worship" that could teach us and comfort us today? I have to wonder as I consider all the various things I read this morning.
There was a time when I reveled in the "freedom" of the Spirit and loved a service that was so "God directed" that we never knew where it was going. Clearly a strict litergical formate, in my mind at least doesn't give much room for some serious corporate manifestion of the Spirit. I always have sort of discounted that approach as worshipping the order rather than the living God while I see alot of people who dismiss a free flowing service as worshipping the "experience" rather than our Lord and Savior, Jesus and our Father, God. So I am pondering now ... where do the two meet and is it wise to simply give ourselves over to format OR whatever goes?
I do find that I miss and long for the discipline of some sort of ritual or reverent approach to God. I find myself thinking wanting to wash and take off all of my jewlery before I go into an intense time of prayer or study. I find myself longing for some sort of differentiation in my time with God from the whole Jesus is my Buddy mentality. When I look at the old scriptures and some of the wording of the old Creeds ... I realize that I have so personalized God that I have lost some of the Old Testament awe and fear and trembling of an AWESOME GOD. I tend to look at my relationship with the Lord strictly on casual terms and I don't find myself wholly comfortable with that either. It sometimes feels like we have made God such an intimate Father that we have lost some of that reverence that makes us truly fall to our knees in awe and trembling of the Magnificence of God. Does anyone else know what I mean?
I don't feel that it's coming out well but perhaps I will develop a better way to express it later. I think there is something about waking up and reciting and creed and taking communion daily ... alone with God before I enter into my personal prayers that appeals to me. It feels respectful and I am finding a longing for that. There was a time when I would daily take communion and recite the Apostles Creed at the beginning of my prayer time ... I would sprinkle a few drops of annointing oil into the juice or wine and it was a very personal yet holy and reverent time. The soberness of the ceremony coupled with my personal prayer time reminded me of both God's intimacy with His people AND His own worthiness to be worshipped and respected.
Worship began out of a reverent and holy act TOWARDS God ... not for what we felt afterward or even during ... but as an act of awe and respect and adoration to our God. Sometimes it feels so ... casual now that maybe it does seem almost a bit profane. I realize we no longer need ritual or priests or sacrifices of animals to come to the Father ... but I do wonder if we don't approach the Lord a bit insultingly casual at times.
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You asked some great questions, I would say this to what you said. I believe that you did not take your thoughts back far enough when you were talking:
I believe that as times change so do some of God's methods but I have to wonder how the "great" protestant leaders of our past found there way to inspire the freedoms we have today without jammin or "moving" praise and worship and in the midst of a litergical order within the chruch every time they met.
I think we need to look at one church service a little bit earlier like the one in acts when the Holy Spirit fell in the upper room. I would argue with just about anyone that those folks in that meeting weren't sitting still for a litergical service. You also have to remember that the protestant reformation came out of a dark period in church history where salvation could be purchased like "carbon offsets" :) I would also argue that the freedom was the original intent but that the early Catholic church imposed a set of rules and standards that stifled the Spirit. Still even in freedom it must be done with order because Holy Spirit does not move chaotically.
I will just give you my initial thought, keeping in mind I have not pondered deeply...I just got home from work, so pondering takes too much energy. I saying one or other is right or wrong is putting God in a box...God can do and use whatever he wants. Having said that, I am more determined than ever to get out of my "religious" traditions and for me that includes the free-for-all Holy Spirit hours of worship every Sunday where the pastor doesn't speak as much as the traditional formal planned out services, the truth is it can all become religious traditions and put God in a box. I understand God is worthy of respect and honor. However, I believe more than anything God longs for our fellowship and communion as a Father/Child relationship. My children don't have to act holy and dignified for me to know they respect me. I know that my children respect me when they listen to me and obey me. I know they love me when they do those things and consider what I need or want. It doesn't happen the same way for each child I have, each child approaches that differently and I think it is the same way with God...but I will ponder more later.
ok, just forget what i said since Hbomb's sounds so much more elegant and well written. But there is something to be said for being first... :)
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I completely resonnate with what you are thinking Shamma Queen (SQ). I also had a distain for liturgical worship throughout my college years. After graduating ASU, while living in CA and attending Fuller Theological Seminary I had an eye opening experience. I attended an Orthodox morning prayer service that was complete liturgy. The Father leading the prayers was a one time Vineyard pastor. I spent some time talking with Sam about my experiences with liturgy and asked for some perspective. He shared that when we prayed the prayers in the Orthodox liturgy we were partaking in the same liturgy that the apostles and early church fathers set down and had been recited for the last 2,000 years. The next time around the Holy Spirit bombed the place. It was as intense as any "charismatic/pentecostal/spirit filled - whateveryouwanttocallit" exprience I ever had. There was a PROFOUND sense of connectedness not only to everyone present but to something much deeper and until that point untouched by me. There was a sense of the ancient faith that the freewheeling praise and worship misses (Though it is wonderful and has a significant place in my journey ). I have become a fan of the catholic and orthodox mystics. The protestant traditions have all had some "free wheeling" in their respected histories. For some of the Catholic and Orthodox "traditions" they never lost Him. We now attend a lutheran church and the liturgy is in some ways restrictive, but it does offer a communal exprience that does convey the awe and reverence you notice. Having said all that, I don't think Papa really cares how we come, so long as we come. I go through seasons of casualness and then some of awe and reverence. As soon as I see one getting too comfortable, I try to shift gears to the others. To be whole in our relationship with God, we need both. So in whatever place you are in... Dance to the music that is playing!
So I waited so long that Reed stole my thunder. If you even take an example of Paul and the Apostles, you will see that they still went to the jewish services on Saturday and the home churches on Sunday. God made us to follow structure from the time we are born to the time we die.
God does require us to approach him in Holiness and respect, but with freedom and a sense of release.
There is so much here we could talk for days. But here are some points of reference.
1.God did not do away with all requirements of ceremony when Jesus came.
2.We don't want to be like the Pharisees and allow ceremony and tradition to rule.
3.We don't want to carelessly "handle" the worship of God. (reference the return of the Ark of the Covenant to David)
4.We do want to be free in His presence. (Reference the worship of King David)
So I say that God does want us to come to Him with all that we are and to do it in reverence, awe, love, jubilation, dancing, prayer, singing. There is a time for all.
Didn't the Jews dance there way to worship sometimes, with music and psalm singing? Then when the reached the temple they entered into a time of liturgy or directed worship with the sacrifices.
Maybe this can be one of our discussions at the "retreat".
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